Lance Glinn:

Welcome into another episode of the Inside the ICE House podcast. Today's guest is Rouven Kasper. He is the CMO of Global Football Power, Bayern Munich. Rouven, thanks so much for joining us inside the Ice House. Happy to have you here.

Rouven Kasper:

Perfect being here, Lance. Thanks for inviting me.

Lance Glinn:

Bayern Munich has long been a powerhouse on the field, but the club has really evolved into a truly global brand. How do you think about the regional to global transformation and the club's evolution into an institution, really, that's recognized by fans obviously in Germany, but fans all around the globe, including here, in the US?

Rouven Kasper:

So I think everything is getting more and more global. And when you talk about the sport, number one globally, which is still growing heavily and you're one of the biggest assets in this market, you are also automatically growing globally. And when you look at our squad, which is representing 10 nations, there you see already for sure we are localized in Germany. We come from the Bundesliga, but when you see where the Bundesliga is now broadcast in over 200 countries, that we always play in the Champions League, that we are in the way far ranking, we are number one before Real Madrid and before Paris Saint-Germain.

We are a global asset and that's something which we make profit out. So we have 1.1 billion interested people into us, into the club. We have many, many followers in different regions. In Asia alone, we have over 500 million followers. So we are global asset and that's something which was not, yet, there maybe 20 years ago, but that's something which has to do with the industry, but as well how we do our business, and at the end, how we perform on a global stage.

Lance Glinn:

And so when you think about competing not just on the field, but in the global brand landscape right alongside clubs like Real Madrid that you mentioned, PSG, Man U, Barcelona and others, how would you define or describe what differentiates Byron from those other clubs? Not necessarily on the field, because obviously everyone has their own players, everyone has their own style, but off the field when it comes to branding and marketing and getting that fandom globally.

Rouven Kasper:

Yeah, yeah. The colleagues, they're doing an amazing job. And when it comes to followers and everything, I think Real Madrid is the number one. And then we are directly following. And when you have this possibility of this 1.1 billion followers on our social media, we have 220 million followers. So these are really the fans who are engaged, who are communicating every day with us, and knowing that we have almost 450,000 members. So we are members-owned club and this is the biggest difference to almost all the other clubs. When you look to the Premier League, to La Liga, to Syria, most of the times there are investors in there. And we are a very, very solid traditional club. We are powerhouse. We stand for planable success when it comes to sports performance, but also to very strong values.

For sure, everybody knows Germany as a quality-based country for the Oktoberfest and everything. And these are all topics which we try to bring into the international landscape, for sure, from my perspective, and I'm now the CMO since half a year, we still think a little bit too local, too German, and that's something which we need to push us, as well, interpreting our brand and more on a global scale, bringing these German USPs to local markets. Doesn't matter if it's to the US, to LatAm, to Asia, where the potential is not, yet, there where we want to be. So there's a lot of room of improvement.

But when you look that 95% of our social media followers, they are out of the German-speaking countries. But our members, at the same time, are for 85% from the DACH region. You see the potential which we need to work for, and then we will speed up and let's see who's in the first row in the next 10 years.

Lance Glinn:

Absolutely. And so you mentioned a lot of countries there, you mentioned a lot of regions, Asia, LatAm, obviously non-German-speaking countries in Europe, so on and so forth. When you look at some of those priority growth markets, how do you bring authenticity when you're trying to expand your footprint into those regions? Because obviously, you want to take advantage of them, you want to spread what Bayern does, you want to spread the brand, you want it to grow, but you also want it to be authentic. You want how you're pitching these people to feel authentic so that they can really connect with you. How do you bring authenticity into everything?

Rouven Kasper:

At first, you need to talk with the people. You need to be in the market. You need to understand and learn from the market. You cannot go there and just say, "Hey, here we are. We are Bayern, and please listen to us." You need to first get the knowledge. That's why we opened here, in US, 14 years ago, an office in Shanghai 12 years ago. We have another one in Bangkok in Seoul. That's needed that you understand the markets and then you need to localize. For sure we have a very, very strong value-based traditional DNA. Maybe you heard about our claim, "Mia San Mia?" we are what we are. That's a very tough thinking, that we are focused, that we know where we are strong, that we are very familiar and that we include and not exclude people. We stand for community, community all around the world. And that's something you need to localize.

So community is in every continent, in every country. The meaning is a little bit different. And also, the consumption is completely different when it comes to media consumption, commercial consumption. You need to learn, and then we bring our DNA and localize it. And that's something where you need to have know-how and you need to have resources, and also, the right partners in the regions.

Lance Glinn:

How hard is it to find that, I'll call it that local flavor? Because all these different countries or regions are different. And like you said, just because something works in one place doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work there. Just because something worked in Germany or a country adjacent to Germany doesn't mean it's going to work in LatAm or it's going to work in Asia or it's going to work here, in the US. You really have to find that local flavor of sorts. And even here, in the US, expanding or trying to grow here in New York is going to be a lot different than growing in California or growing in Texas or growing in the Midwest. It's all going to be different. How hard is it to figure out or what's your process in figuring out, okay, this is what this region likes, this is what this region's all about, and then, ultimately, combining your brand with the local brand and finding what fits.

Rouven Kasper:

It is not easy and you will never be ready for all these areas because it's just too much. I think first, you need to have a strategy. You need to know where you want to focus on which kind of business, as well, you want to focus. And for every business, you have different target groups and then you have different target regions, and there, you need to focus and then really get the know-how about this approach. You cannot be everywhere. That's just not possible because, as you said, it's too diverse. The world is too diverse. Countries are very diverse. And when you have defined your strategy, then have the right approach and then you need to put resources and content there.

Lance Glinn:

I'm going to compare soccer, football, of course, to the NBA in the sense that the NBA here, so many people, while they root for teams, they also root for individual players. And I feel like for soccer, a lot of that similarity rings true. And obviously, for Bayern, you have names like Harry Kane that have their own personal brands, as well. Or how does the club think about amplifying those personal brands, those big name players, so to speak, while also, obviously, amplifying the global brand and the global team brand, too? Because I'd think you'd want to make sure you have a fine line of both and find a balance between the individual players as well as the overall team brand.

Rouven Kasper:

As I said, we are a very inclusive club, and this needs to be a symbiose of both. For sure we have very strong talents, Manuel Neuer, and you have Josh Kimmich, the captain of the German national team. You have Harry Kane, you have Olise, Luis Diaz, so really global superstars. And for sure we want to have some behind the scenes stories we need to use, as well, and their popularity and the social media. And that's something where we are quite special as Bayern Munich because we, as a club have, all the personality rights of our players. That's something when it comes to commercial, when it comes to media partnerships and so on, we are ways more flexible than all the rest, which you also know from the NBA, from the NFL, where the players just do what they want and they are their own brands.

For sure our players are, as well, the brands, but we also produce brands. When you look at Olise, we brought him very young and what kind of brand he has now, we produced for him, with him. For sure, he performs incredibly on the pitch, but this is a symbios.

Lance Glinn:

Of course.

Rouven Kasper:

Also, Harry Kane was a very strong player already in Tottenham. But what happened the last two years since he joined, as well, Bayern, I think it needs to fit together on a very authentic way, and then both parties should benefit, and that's what we are aiming for. We are not a selling club. We are a buying club which wants to have the strongest players, the strongest personalities which fit together. Nobody should leave it as long as they perform.

Lance Glinn:

Exactly.

Rouven Kasper:

And we want to win titles together and bring this to the communities.

Lance Glinn:

Now, comparing again to something here in the United States, obviously soccer interest here, in the United States, is nowhere near yet at the level as it is in Europe, specifically. But I do think it continues to rise as we talked about before we started recording. And I think, obviously, having the World Cup be hosted here, having the final be hosted not far from where we sit today is obviously going to help drum up excitement, drum up interest just as previous World Cups and previous success of both US men and US women's national teams have done in the past.

Where do you see or how do you see the tournament, specifically, the World Cup Tournament being a catalyst for growth and for continued interest here in the US? How could you see it helping to expand what is already a growing sport here in a country where there are at least four other sports right now that eclipse it?

Rouven Kasper:

It's not easy for soccer, as we call it football. But fact is that soccer's growing heavily. When we started our business in 2014, there were a little bit more than 100 million people interested into soccer. When we look now into the numbers, it's almost 140 million. So it's growing heavily. I also feel that the World Cup right now is producing something. You feel the bus, you feel-

Lance Glinn:

Sure, yeah, there's a general excitement. Yeah.

Rouven Kasper:

It's a little bit hotter. Knowing that in 1994, this is already, or was already, the World Cup with the biggest attendancies since FIFA's history. And I think now knowing that there are more matches, more teams, more matches, the stadium capacities, this will be a new benchmark, for sure.

So don't talk too small about soccer in the US. And we just overturned with soccer, baseball in the US. So we are the sport number three now, and knowing about the demographic changes, as well, and developments in US that as I know, but you're closer to that in 2030, that one 25% of the population are Hispanics, and knowing that this is their sport number one, also, there something is growing. So it is coming.

Also, when it comes to youth work, really strong talents are already here. We already had strong talents. We brought Chris Richards and Malik Tillman from the national team, which are playing now for the US. They played in our youth academy, so they are already strong, but something is happening. It's, for us, a very good development. So we have patience, we have a very solid concept, generally, with Bayern Munich, and we were part of this growth.

Lance Glinn:

I want to pivot the conversation now to just the role of partnership and the role of sponsorship, specifically, too. And obviously, the club has some of the most recognizable commercial partnerships in global sports. When you just approach sponsorships broadly, whether it's a jersey sponsorship or a broader presenting deal, what are the core principles that guide how you evaluate and how you structure those relationships? What do you do to determine this is someone we want to partner with?

Rouven Kasper:

So as I told you that from the numbers perspective, from the success and so on, from our members, we're one of the biggest clubs in the world. But nevertheless, we have also big disadvantages when it comes to media revenues. So the Bundesliga makes a little bit more than one billion euros out of media. And when you compare it with the English colleagues, they make almost four. And also, the structural topic with 50 plus one in comparison to franchise models and having investors into your club financially, not generally. Generally it's an advantage for us, but financially, it's a disadvantage. So we need to have another concept. And this is also what we stand for Bayern Munich and makes almost one billion euros revenue per year.

So we're the second or third biggest. It depends on the year, as well. But the last 30 years, we are profitable. Why? Because we are managing the club like a company and, therefore, all kind of revenue streams which we have in our hand are important for us. So media is very relevant, but it's in the hand of the league and depends how relevant we are in different areas and regions in the world. But when it comes to sponsoring, when it comes to merchandising, ticketing, that's our core business. So we make almost one third of our revenue out of sponsoring. Our shareholders of the club are the members, 50 plus one. But 8.3% of our club are each in the hand of the three big A's of Allianz, Adidas, and Audi. And for sure, our other sponsors like SAP and so on, they're investing into us and they stay with us over decades. So Telecom is our main sponsor for now 25 years. So Adidas over 50 years. Polana, 40 years.

So that's something where you need to be in perfection, not just closing deals, having a perfect relationship, always being at the edge and producing innovative, good topics together. And this is where we are benchmark. There we are the strongest. And this is our philosophy. So the brands need to fit together. Very important. We want to activate together, not just locally in Germany, also globally talking about these brands. Their ambition is a global ambition like ours is, as well. So DNA fits together, relationship is very important, and that you have a common sustainable thinking.

And based on that, we develop the partnership step by step, and that's why we don't have a big fluctuation. Sometimes something happens, which is normal, but when you look, as you said, into our portfolio of partners and making almost a little bit more than 300 million euros out of sponsoring, you need to be in perfection like that.

Lance Glinn:

And so you mentioned some of those years are 25 years, 50 years, 40 years for all these different partners that you have. I think that speaks to obviously the loyalty that they have to Bayern, but I also think it shows that they get a lot out of it, too, right?

Rouven Kasper:

Absolutely.

Lance Glinn:

It's not just something that the club gets, it's something that they get, too. So I guess how does that make you feel that you've been able to, like you said, not fluctuate a lot, retain all of these partners long-term? I would think to you, it shows that you're doing something right. How do you make sure that, that standard remains high and that those on your team, those who are helping run, like you said, the club like a company, don't get complacent? Because once you hit complacency, that's when things can start to fall off. You always want to have that high standard. How do you ensure that that high standard is maintained so that, that loyalty that these brands are showing continues to go?

Rouven Kasper:

Strongest relationship and business done by the people, not by strategies, and this is why relationship is very important. Second, progressive thinking. So when you keep standing, then they leave you. And this is why you always need to be progressive. Like we said, okay, 14 years ago we went to US. 12 years ago, we entered the Asian market with the first office. Digitally, we are very strong when it comes to artificial intelligence and so on.

So never stop. Always be the spearhead of developments. And when they feel this, and then we are part of that. And I don't want to say that we are always the best. Also our partners, they are the best and they're pushing us some, as well, in two directions. It's a win-win. You need to do this, and together, we are open. We are an open company. And when they come with ideas, we look at it, we produce something together, if it makes sense for both sides.

Lance Glinn:

Sure.

Rouven Kasper:

And this is something openness, having a clear strategy, progressive thinking and perfect relationship. I think this is a good mixture how we can manage also being a stable and planable, top level, global platform also for the future.

Lance Glinn:

So you mentioned digital, and we obviously also talked about, especially here in the US, this growing youth fandom of the sport. And younger fans are increasingly consuming sports, whether it be soccer, football, basketball, baseball, whatever, you name it. They're consuming these sports, not necessarily as much through the full games, but through highlights, through social media, through creator-driven content type of things. How is Bayern adapting to engage that digital native audience that might not experience sports in, say, those traditional ways that they may have experienced 10, 15, 20 years ago?

Rouven Kasper:

Yeah, the media landscape is fragmented more and more. So the target groups are completely different. It comes from linear TV to subscription model, D2C models. And also, I see myself often on YouTube just checking the five minutes summary of any kind of matches because you want to be part of that. You want to see how they played and everything. And that's something where you, again, be progressive.

We were the first club in Europe working together with TikTok, as an example. There's something where you say, okay, new target groups. And knowing that from our almost 450,000 members, a little bit more than 100,000 under 18 years old. So you need to know that you need to talk with them and they consume in a completely another way. They are very digital. They don't have the time for watching 95 minutes, now, a match. And that's something I think this shift we manage quite good.

So it's never perfect. You always need to be top-notch in this kind of development. But I think in this fragmentation of the media landscape, you need to be flexible. And we are now working on, I think, 25 different owned platforms, social media platforms. That's a lot when you think about 20 years ago.

Lance Glinn:

There were probably none.

Rouven Kasper:

There was none. And always different target groups. Another kind of content, fast content, more storytelling, talking about the soccer itself, technically, different target groups. And that's a little bit more effort, but you need to go with the time.

Lance Glinn:

And we talked earlier, too, about player storytelling or player brands, for example. So building off the talk of being progressive around this digital native consumption, whether it's things like behind the scenes footage, whether it be player storytelling or, I guess, social first formats, what's your just general philosophy around content creation and how do you measure, or how does your team measure content that really resonates versus ones that are just one-offs where they might get a little bit of engagement but then die out? Because you want that engagement, sure, but you also want your content to be ones that get watched over and over again. So how do you make sure that your content is that and not things that get watched once and then get thrown in the trash?

Rouven Kasper:

Yeah, that's a question of the philosophy. So I told you about our 220 million followers on our own social media. That's a lot. That's really a lot. But this is not how we measured. Our measures is the quality of data we have. It doesn't matter if it's the 220 million on social media or the 10 million of data we really have from our consumers, fans. It's about the quality, the interaction, how do they consume? And these are the numbers which are important for us because then, we see that this is the nerve of the people. And for us, it's not a show-off how many followers we have. It's about the dialogue, the quality of dialogue, and this is something where we produce formats, storytelling, which are authentic. And for sure, sometimes there are trends from right to left. Maybe there we are not the fastest when it comes to the trends because first, we look a little bit if it's really efficient, if it fits to our quality approach. But if we see it is following and it is based on quality, then we completely invest into this topic.

Lance Glinn:

I want to quickly ask about AI because it obviously is a technology that has enabled a lot of things for a lot of different industries that weren't possible at the speed that they are now. They weren't possible at that speed before. And I feel like with sports, in general, it might be a little bit slower. A lot of sports I watch, be it I'm a big Yankees fan, I'm a big New York Giants fan, I'm big New Jersey Devils fan, so those are I would say my three sports, baseball, football, hockey. I feel like AI hasn't, yet, integrated itself all the way into those sports.

Do you feel like it's integrated itself more into soccer or football? And if so, how have you seen it impact potentially what you and your team does at Bayern?

Rouven Kasper:

So generally, you see two big trends, which is artificial intelligence, which is everybody knows growing heavily, heavily, not just on the stock market, also in the personal lives and life experience, premium life experience. We are growing heavily. Super Bowl is growing heavily. World Cup is growing heavily. So these two trends you have and how can you combine this? I think in industries like channel entertainment, artificial intelligence is integrated better than in sports. Sports is always a little bit behind.

But what we are now, as well, looking very closely to is that we integrate into the fan journey. So access to players, as an example, is limited. So I cannot go to Harry Kane and say, "Listen, please, in Chinese, in Japanese, in English, in different languages, please make some speeches or something like that."

Lance Glinn:

For sure.

Rouven Kasper:

With AI, I can do it within-

Lance Glinn:

A minute, yea.

Rouven Kasper:

10 seconds for 100 countries. And there were greetings all over the world and the people get used to it. So also, when it comes to the fan journey so far, I think doesn't matter where you are in Europe, when you lose your ticket, you go into a chat or you call a hotline or something like that. They know the agent. Agent. This is something which is better service, which is faster. It's closer. Then you can integrate, as well, commercial topics into this journey.

But you are completely right. The sport in general is a little bit behind, but that's something, as an example, is on our strategic paper heavily. And I think we will speed this up the next month and years soon.

Lance Glinn:

Yeah, not just soccer, just all the different sports, especially here, in the US. Sports are so traditional, and people want to maintain those traditional values. And then when something like AI comes along, it's like you said, sports is a lot slower because people are so much more hesitant to integrate something new because you feel like sports has been done one way for so long, we want to keep it that way. And then AI comes in and it's like everyone has to take a pause, evaluate it first, and then see how it fits in. But I think it makes a lot of sense with what you're saying with the fan experience, the fan journey, how fans interact at games, how they interact with players. You mentioned that Harry Kane example, like you said, you couldn't do that before AI, but now with AI, you said in 10 seconds, if it even takes 10 seconds, you can spit out something that could go to a hundred different countries and could be in a hundred different languages if you need.

So looking ahead as the sport obviously continues to globalize, and technology, as we just discussed, continues to reshape how fans connect with teams, what excites you most about the future? First and foremost, before we talk about the team, what excites you most about the future of soccer or football fandom? What excites you most about what the fans could have coming?

Rouven Kasper:

Generally, I think when you look into the heart, the DNA of football, where it comes from, it comes from the people. Every football club is founded for bringing communities together, bringing sports, healthiness to the people. And for sure, now it's a very, very also commercial platform. And especially here in US, it's all about investment and so on. But I think this community management in a very authentic way, giving something to the people, very romantic. At the end, our currency for the people is bringing happiness to them. And this is something where you can all put more quality together, that it's shifting a little bit back from the very commercial business also to the very human business, also make it accessible for everybody.

And there we talk about the prices example for the World Cup. That's not accessible for everybody. But there, we are very traditional thinking in Germany. We have the lowest prices because we love the atmosphere in the stadiums that the fans are 95 minutes singing the whole time.

Lance Glinn:

True.

Rouven Kasper:

And that's something, these values you need to bring to the people. And when you see how football still is growing globally, we are very convinced that this journey goes on. We are not limited. When you see also the clever strategic approach of the FIFA now with enlarging the World Cup, as well, 12 new teams on top means you bring this fascination into 12 more countries, which normally would be excluded. You invest there. Infrastructure is coming and the euphorical thinking about this sport is growing and so on. And this is why the sport is still big. It's already big, big. It's the number one, but it's still something we invest heavily.

Lance Glinn:

And then, I can guess what success on the field obviously looks like, winning the Bundesliga, ultimately winning the Champions League, so on and so forth. But when you think about off the field and with the Bayern Munich brand, what does success look like moving forward for you?

Rouven Kasper:

Success at the end, and this is titles. That's the topic from the pitch. This the core, this is the engine, and that's it. But for sure, the more professional you are, the more commercial business, the more profit you make, the more you can invest into the core business. Doesn't matter if you invested into infrastructure, as an example. All real estate, we have stadium, headquarter, youth academy, now we bought 30,000 square meters for our women's team, including a stadium. Everything is owned by us, no debts. And this makes you financially not just stable, it makes you stronger, as well, in the core because all revenues you get, you can invest into the sports.

And this is the more success you have in the commercial business. And this means enlarging the brand globally, having new targets groups globally, opening new doors, new commercial doors globally brings the success also on the pitch.

Lance Glinn:

But like you said, ultimately, at the end of the day on the field, it is all about those titles, winning the Bundesliga, winning the Champions League. Can't ask for anything more than that.

Rouven Kasper:

Winning the Champions League. That's for us, for sure. Bundesliga is important. That's our daily business, including the German Cup. But at the end, we are a club. We are aiming for the biggest title, which is the Champions League. And this really hurts this last season a little bit that in the semi-final, we lost against Paris Saint-Germain, but when you lose it like that and it hurts, I think it gives even a stronger motivation for the team. So let's have a look what is happening next season.

Lance Glinn:

Absolutely. There's There's an extra fire when you come back, for sure. Ruben, thanks so much for joining us inside the ICE House.

Rouven Kasper:

Thanks for having me here.